Archive for the ‘Daniel’s Vision (chapter 2)’ Category

Walter Veith’s Slight of Hand

October 17, 2015

Walter Veith

Many of us are aware that the best magicians are those who have us watching the wrong hand. They attempt to have us focus on something that allows us to be tricked. We miss the real deal, the right action.

Last Sabbath I had time to watch Walter Veith’s video called “Decoding the book of Daniel/ Daniel Chapter 2/ Walter Veith”  on YouTube. Let me begin by saying that I personally have always liked Walter. His style is of the typical brilliant class professor. The one who has much intelligence and charm thrown in as well.

I came to know about him back in 2009. I was given a DVD called “From Evolutionist to Creationist”. At that time I was beginning my SDA walk, and I was very impressed with his story. It took courage to change his views while being a high level Evolutionist.

Walter has a very large following, particularly among the Seventh-day Adventist community. His teachings are regarded as high level and accurate for the most part. Although there are some leaders among the SDA that feel his conspiracy theories (ie. Jesuit knowledge and world conspiracies) go too far from mainstream SDA teachings.

As mentioned he has that professor mentality and can really break down prophecies and other teachings as well. No wonder he is highly followed and relied upon by many SDA. His evolutionist professorship has refined his approach.

But since I have been fortunate enough to be “guided into all Truth” (John 16:13)the Spirit of Truth has erected the great “truth detector” in my life. After endeavoring to keep walking up the truth stair steps , and not content to stay on a certain level, I became aware of the true meaning of Daniel 2.

The Lord knew we as SDA would want truth specifically meant for us in the last days of our SDA probation. Therefore, looking down to our time He said–

“Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and dreadful day of the Lord.”(Mal. 4:5) 

This prophet, we as present truth believers know was Victor T. Houteff. Brother Houteff gave us the correct interpretation of Daniel 2. Once we study and know this understanding from the Lord’s Elijah, we can then be in a position to know counterfeits. Just like the professional currency detectors, who are able to distinguish the false from the true, based on their knowledge of the true, we can know error in prophecies simply because we can see all the holes, all the non-arranged pieces of the puzzle.

So with this foundation  I sat back and decided to watch the whole video, all 1 hour and 24 minutes of it. I knew that I was likely to find error because I know Walter, as far as I know has not accepted the teachings of our Lord’s prophet, just like the masses of our SDA church. But I wanted to compare what one of the popular teachers of our time was doing with what God’s word says.

Let us now look at what Mr. Veith proposes as truth about Daniel 2.

He begins by showing a “Dictionary of prophetic terms”. This is to help to decipher the vision. However the first mis-step I notice is that he leaves out the meaning of the “mountain”.  Remember when we made reference to  “the best magicians are those who have us watching the wrong hand”? So he starts out showing the Biblical meaning of — Trumpet, Rock, Zion, Woman, etc. yet fails to address Daniel’s “mountain” understanding. The “stone” comes from the mountain (not the sky) , so we need to know what the mountain symbolizes.

He begins with  a good historical breakdown of Daniel 2:1-25. There is some history on who the Chaldeans were and the backdrop leading up to Daniel coming to the king to give the interpretation.

Then he begins to explain what Daniel said he saw to the king, namely the statue. I would like you to really focus in here at what he does next. After describing the statue, Walter says, “then he (Daniel) saw a rock hurtled towards earth, strike the statute and destroy it and it struck at the feet and nowhere else.” 

“So who is this rock? Obviously if it is not a human intervention it’s a divine intervention.. it IS (his emphasis) the second coming of Christ.”

So let us stop here. First we must ask why Walter jumps to the conclusion that the stone is Christ? No point of reference is given, just his blanket statement. Let us quote Daniel–

“For as much as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is  certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.” (Dan. 2:45)

Now how can Mr. Veith proceed to teach his theories without explaining to us what the mountain symbolizes? After all the stone comes from it. If the stone “rock” is Jesus, it is symbolic, then the rest of the vision must have a symbolic meaning as well and be understood. Otherwise it is only guesswork.

Mr. Veith goes on to describe the reason for the breaking up the statute, without ever coming back to explain  what the mountain symbolizes. It is conveniently ignored. Mis-step number 2.

This point is very important because we can establish just who the stone represents when we know from where it came from. In order to be Jesus the vision should show that the stone comes from the sky (heaven) yes? But it does not, it shows it comes from the mountain , which is on earth.

The Word shows us the meaning of the mountain.

“O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.” (Daniel 9:16)

“And while I was  speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;”(Daniel 9:20)

“And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.” (Isaiah 2:2-3)

“But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.” (Micah 4:1)

“Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.” (Zech. 8:3)

Further references are found in Isaiah 56:7, 51:16, Jer. 51:25.

So we see that the term “mountain” is used symbolically to describe God’s people, his church.So logically the vision must be understood in showing that the stone comes from the mountain, God’s people/church. Walter pays no attention to this very important detail and thus follows a rabbit trail into the false meaning of the vision. This is exactly why we needed a “restorer of all things” sent to us!

A little past the half way point Walter Veith establishes again that he views the stone as Christ. “The next event to come… Christ coming in glory. The stone that will bring an end to all the earthly kingdoms.”

The third major mis-step occurs near the end of the presentation. Quoting Daniel 2:44, he leaves out a very important part of the verse, “… the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed.”

The reason we need to point these errors out is because all of these mistakes are detrimental to the true intended interpretation of the vision. God’s lesson that was meant for us, is gutted by his lack of knowledge, his private interpretations.

“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” (2 Peter 1″20)

Going back to verse 44 we read it in full–

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.” (Daniel 2:44)

We see that DURING “in” the days of “these kings”, the 10 toe kings of the feet (our time), shall God set up His kingdom. You see Mr. Veith cannot show that part of verse 44 because to really dwell upon it one cannot promote his private agenda that the vision is describing Christ at the second coming as commonly taught among SDA leaders. So naturally he leaves that out to quash any thoughts opposite of his.

While we can’t go into all the many points of the vision now, we can point out a few that are noteworthy. Aside from the long time erroneous interpretation of the stone being Christ, we know that this cannot be so for another solid reason.

Once the stone strikes and destroys the image, the kingdoms symbolically, then the stone STAYS on the earth , fills it, and becomes a “great mountain”. When Christ comes at the second coming, His feet do not touch the earth, neither does He “fill the whole earth”. He draws all the saints living and dead up to Him and they are taken to heaven. The earth is then destroyed, dark and void, far from a great mountain, a great people on earth.

But when we realize that the stone is cut out without hands from the mountain, we know that a divine intervention is made and a portion of God’s people are separated from the large mountain of God–His church. Who could this small portion be? Yes, it is the 144,000! The Ezekiel 9 church judgment is the “cut out of the mountain without hands” part .

In other words, God performs this separation at the beginning of the judgment for the living in God’s house ( 1 Peter 4:17). We the SDA are His last church (7th of Rev. chapter 3) and this dream was meant for the us in the  “latter days” as Daniel pointed out to the king. All should be aware the true interpretation is now available to all those who seek truth.

The 144,000 then go out and give the Loud Cry with great power and thus the earth “kingdoms” are destroyed symbolically. No wars, but it’s God’s power through His servants that destroys.

“Thou art my battle axe and weapons of war: for with thee will I break in pieces the nations, and with thee will I destroy kingdoms; And with thee will I break in pieces the horse and his rider; and with thee will I break in pieces the chariot and his rider; With thee also will I break in pieces man and woman; and with thee will I break in pieces old and young; and with thee will I break in pieces the young man and the maid;

I will also break in pieces with thee the shepherd and his flock; and with thee will I break in pieces the husbandman and his yoke of oxen; and with thee will I break in pieces captains and rulers. And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith the LORD. “(Jer. 51:20-24)

The great multitude are called out of Babylon (false religions) and brought into the kingdom center–Israel. The pre-millennial kingdom is then begun as a final witness to the dying world. Then truly it will be said that the stone “became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.”

You see, the Lord wants to finally come on the stage and He wants to do it in front of the heathen as a testimony of His glory and power. Inspiration through the prophet Haggai declared–

“And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen.” (Hag. 2:22)

When Mr. Veith and others give their false interpretation of His prophecy of Daniel 2, they deny His plans, His final battle. The battle that He wins and all will see it play out–The stone destroying and then becomes a great mountain.

Let us be clear here, we are not saying that Walter Veith is purposely being deceptive. What we are saying is that he is clearly showing that he has not accepted the Lord’s Elijah message, of which was given the true interpretation of Daniel 2 , among many other prophecies. And as he is a leading teacher, we strongly warn him and all who follow him and his teachings to come over to the Lord’s side–the Truth.

“Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.” (James 3:1)

Walter closes his video with —

“We need to study these prophecies carefully and unfold them and unravel them, to see the final nuances.”

“I make a vow to you if I speak anything that is contrary to the word of God–leave… Test every word I say..if you can show me that I am wrong, I’ll change I promise.”

Ok Walter, we take up your challenge. Read this post and see that you have not dealt fully nor truthful in your teaching of Daniel 2. Your lesson here is the general standard teaching of long ago within the SDA church. However that does not necessarily make it right nor truthful.

In closing, our Lord wants us to know His true plans by way of His prophecies and not some false human interpretations. Soon His mighty army will go to work upon the world and be victorious (the stone destroying the image). This is for the purpose of the world seeing God’s real glory through His servants.

“We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn.” (Selected Messages, vol. 1, p.37)

“There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation.” (Counsels to Writers and Editors, p.35)

“The wise shall understand” (verse 10), was spoken of the visions of Daniel that were to be unsealed in the latter days..” (PK, p.547-548)


For the Elijah study outline of Daniel 2, click here



The Daniel2 Vision

November 26, 2011

As we know, it is Satan’s determined purpose to hide as much truth as possible from us, especially “present truth”. For he knows his time is short and should the people become aware of present truth, which is His latest instructions to His people, a sort of final road map as it were,  he shall be defeated in his wiles of deception, and the people shall continue on the divine lighted path of our Almighty. A perfect example of this coy deception is the prophectic vision of Daniel, chapter 2.

Has the devil  led the people into thinking that the “stone” in Daniel’s vision is Jesus, to sidetrack the people from the real God intended purpose of the vision? Can there be  a clearly different  understanding to this important prophetic vision? Many are learning today that there most definitely IS a clear and different interpretation. It has been revealed for many decades but only now, as “Elijah’s end time message”  is going out, is it really being discovered and spread, the veil of deception is being removed, and truth is being exposed. Let’s take a look at this vision closely.

It has been a long held tradition, to most of Chrisendom, that the stone in Daniel’s vision  symbolizes Jesus. This belief comes from the proposed fact that Jesus, as the stone, comes from the “mountain”, which in the vision, is meant to represent heaven. And therefore as the stone comes from the mountain, it implies that Jesus is coming from heaven to destroy the earths kingdoms, in the near future. But let’s really understand the “mountain” symbolization  here ,  let’s  look into God’s word to understand the correct interpretation of this vision.

While it is true that the word “mountian” in the bible has varied meanings. Sometimes it a literal meaning, and sometimes symbolic. To get the most direct “in context”  meaning of the word in Daniel’s vision, we should logically look into Daniel’s own inspired writing’s within  that chapter. This  can be  a big key. How does he use the word “mountain” in his inspired writings? Does he use it symbolically? If he uses it in the symbolic meaning, then that would be a powerful clue as to the meaning used in the vision. Let’s look at the important words in the vision.

The first  verse we’ll look at is Chapter 2, verse 35. It says “..And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.”  Here the traditonal interpretation is that Jesus comes and destroys the world’s kingdoms( image)  and replaces it with His kingdom (fills the whole earth).  As we stated, it is based on the fact that the stone is meant to be Jesus.

Next we have verse 44. “And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, it shall break in pieces these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.”   Now we can see two very  important points that need to be clarified in this verse.

 You’ll notice it says “IN the days of these kings”, but  the traditonal view is that it really means “AFTER the days of these kings”. But that is not what it says, in = does not mean = after. So we can clearly see that DURING the days of these kings , God will set up His kingdom, not after the kings days. In other words, they believe that God’s kingdom is set up- when they(the kings)  are gone from this earth (destroyed) and not while they are still here  living to behold  God’s kingdom being set-up. This subtle mis-interpretation throws the whole intended meaning of the vision off, if we don’t read it clearly.

Also in that same above verse, we notice that it is the “kingdom” that breaks in pieces all the other kingdoms. Kingdoms represent people, it cannot mean Jesus personally breaking up the kingdoms. Otherwise it would have said the “King” breaks up kingdoms or some such words. We should not imagine that which is not clearly there. This is where deception can come, when we read into verses  things which aren’t there, instead of  reading it as it simply says.

In verse 45 it says “Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold….”  Here again the traditional view is that Jesus came out of heaven (mountain) and destroyed the earthly kingdoms.  This is all based on the stone being Jesus and the mountain being heaven. But  Daniel meant that those symbols are represented differently as we will clearly see. Let’s look into the meaning of mountain.

In Daniel’s book, further in chapter 9,  we discover how Daniel uses the word “mountain” and it is clearly symbolic and it’s describtion VERY clear. Verse 16 reads, ” O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, YOUR HOLY MOUNTAIN, because for our sins, and  for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and your people are a reproach to all those around us.”   Here we see Daniel equating Jerusalem and it’s people as –a mountain. In other words, God’s people are His “Holy Mountain”.

Verse 20 really nails it as far as clarification. It says “Now while I was speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God FOR THE HOLY MOUNTAIN of my God…”   Daniel is calling God’s people — The Holy mountain of God.

So from the above we can see in the book of Daniel , the word mountain is used as a representation of God’s people , and obviously that would mean also His church.

Some people have used various other scripture to show that the mountain describes heaven. But we must ask — Is it logical to use Daniel’s own  symbolic meaning of  “mountain” when interpreting this vision, or should we pull out a different meaning of the mountain from another book in the bible?  I think this is a no-brainer.

In the beginning of this post I mentioned how Satan hates “present truth”. To give you an idea about this prophetic vision and how it is considered  present truth, it has only recently been correctly understood (within the last few decades). Not even Ellen White knew much about this vision!  Arther White, the secretary of the EGW estate, back in 1971, stated that she had made no mention of the “stone” as to what it represented,  in all her vast writings!

 The scroll of truth has since opened further. And today, we can see that the stone really is a small portion of God’s people “Cut out with out hands”. This term means God removed this portion from among the people of God (church).

These people are none other than the 144,000! They are divinely”cut out”. This process is a divine act that comes from God, it’s  the sealing time of God’s servants, which is described in Revelation 7:1-4. It also is described (quite solemnly) in Ezekiel 9:1-11). 

This vision means that WE are now being shown what will very soon happen, hence the devils wants  falsehood in describing this vision. The 144,000 (stone) will go forth, in God’s power and strength and  “break” the other kingdoms. This means that the 144,ooo go forth and show God’s power and might (miracles and such), and as the other “kingdoms” (which means established religions-NOT governments) see this, they confess that God is indeed with these people. A great mulititude come forth from around the world to come into “God’s kingdom” which really is God’s true church.

So my brothers and sisters, let us take heed on today’s present truth, for by knowing God’s truth FOR TODAY, we are well equipped to navigate Satan’s arrows and stand on firm ground. There will always be people who cling to “tradition”. Spiritual pride is one sickness that can seriously harm our walk with the Lord.

In Christ, Your servant Rob        Ps. For a great video presentation of the Daniel2 Vision , click here ( the source of much of this post)

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